Discussions with an agnostic friend

Discussions with an agnostic friend

Since I want to maintain anonymity, I will call my friend Jack Beanstalk.

Mr. Laurence I have a question for you. What brought you to your religion? What made you decide this was truth for you? I remember you in high school being quite skeptical of religion. It’s funny how the tables have turned. I am just curious to hear what brought you to Catholicism. I don’t want to debate or anything I just am curious. Anyhow, I hope you are well. Take care

Mr. Beanstalk, you can call me Laurence or Mr. Laurence (it's an insider thing among my friends, we really aren’t that formal). You can get a long or short story, but I will try to give you the short story. Yes, I was quite skeptical of religion and Christianity in particular. I was raised a Catholic-Christian, but didn’t really know the basis of such beliefs. So, it was easy to let it go when science seemed to explain the things that religion claimed to. But it goes deeper than that not just for me but I’m sure for many people. Life just seemed more enjoyable without religion. No need to go to Church or say prayers, or follow rules. But, on top of that, I had friends who claimed to be Christian, brought me to their churches, and read me Bible quotes and such, and I knew they weren’t exactly living up to the teachings. So, it seemed hypocritical to me. Anyway, even in my most atheistic days, I never really rebelled against the moral teachings. So, basically I had Christian morals, but no philosophical system to hang them on. I then took a class in introductory philosophy at CSUSB, and there were a few sections on the existence of God, for and against of course. I was really impressed with the logical proofs of Thomas Aquinas, known as his Five Ways. Then there were the arguments for moral absolutes from Immanuel Kant. So, I would say that the foundation for my current belief is as follows: 1) I believe in moral absolutes, otherwise I would have no basis to discuss "right" and "wrong" with anyone. 2) As a creature that could die at any moment, and the same is true for all other sentient beings, I have to wonder, where these absolutes must reside. Eternal truth can only be observed or believed by temporary beings, but it must reside outside of them [for them to be consistent always]. So, it is reasonable to imagine that it resides in the mind of an eternal being. 3) The anthropic principle shows that there are many universal constants like the universal gravitational constant, which if tweaked just a little, would have no life anywhere in the universe, because things like hydrogen would not exist or any other number of necessary elements for life to exist. 4) If there is a God, is he many or one. Aquinas' proofs argue for a singular God. I am convinced of his proofs. [So-called gods such as Zeus and Athena are not the kind of God that Aquinas argued for.] 5) What religions are monotheistic? Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Well, Judaism came first, and they prophesied a Messiah. Christianity came next and claimed that he came in the person of Yeshua bar Yousef. Islam came next as a sect of Christianity and claimed the first two went off the path. Judaism died with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and there are many logical inconsistencies in the Muslim religion. That leaves Christianity. 6) There are over 25,000 denominations of Christianity, but only one can claim to have the historical roots in the early Christian communities, and that is the Catholic Church.

Sorry, I said it would be short, but it was not exactly something I decided to just believe one day. haha.

I am open to any questions, I just wrote this off the top of my head.

Have a wonderful day, Jack!

Well said. One of the best explanations I've actually ever heard. Although it doesn't change my personal convictions which is more in line with Agnosticism. That by far is on of the best explanations I've read spelled out. I would dive into where I disagree but I don't really want to online debate also I am working. I honestly asked because I viewed [you] in high school as some one with high intelligence and I tend to generalize theists particularly Christians as people with lower intelligence. This is unfair but it seems to trend that direction. I really just wanted to see what brought you to where you are today. Ok off to lunch. I would really like to meet up and grab lunch at some point. It's always good talking with you. Have a great rest of your day

Jack, if you recall the debate fest we all had with Bill last year I think it was, I was not looking to pick on anyone. I think there can easily be heat on both sides, from anyone. I look at it this way, anyone who really believes in what they do, will defend it with passion. But, I would say, if we want others to see the truthfulness of our position, then we ought to do it with the least amount of force and ad hominems possible, if not none at all. Bill can be very hot headed and prideful, but I have my moments also. None of us are perfect. I have the highest respect for those who do not believe in God, who would say they are agnostic, rather than atheist, because science by its very nature is tentative, and as such, cannot claim what it cannot prove. Since science cannot prove a no God hypothesis, it takes a leap of "faith" to actually become an atheist, in no less of a way than an intelligent theist takes a leap towards a belief in God.

I know there are weaknesses to what I’ve written. But that's why I need you to point them out so I can think about them and explain how I deal with it. We are all looking at the same data, the universe. I see design from an intelligent being. The agnostic may see the same design and beauty, but admits he knows not the cause, or he may see it as chaotic without rhyme or reason but still not know its cause or perhaps doesn’t care to know.

What is the truth? Well, that's what this is all about. The mere fact that we are discussing this shows that we both believe there must be some truth to be grasped. One of us may have it, or neither of us. But it is there. So when you’re not hiking and working, and I schooling and working for nickels, we can sit down and talk about it!

I definitely want to respond I will when I have ample time. Talk to you soon