My Path to DeTRADversion - Laurence Gonzaga
A friend asked me recently what I would say to a room full of "rad-trads" if I had the opportunity to address them as a captive audience. I probably wouldn't bother with making any claims related to history or theology as so much of those topics have been exhausted in countless books. I suspect my friend wanted to hear a more psychological perspective on this. I 've said it several times this past year or so, and it's a claim that is readily dismissed by passionately committed traditionalist friends, but my observation over the last 18 years of the trad movement and individuals who have come and gone within their circles has been that it has mostly been driven by subjective socio-emotional dynamics and processes going on in that person's life at the time. Maybe "grace" is operating in there somewhere, but you can't really prove to me or anyone that it was leading you to the truthiest truth, or not.
Everyone always thinks they are in the right spot. No one ever thinks they are in the fringe extremes, left or right, or lukewarm fence-sitting.
This is why an "independent priest" I was speaking to a decade ago chuckled when I joked about how the "radical" or "extreme" Catholics are always the one standing to your right. So, I've collected some short posts and writings I've put out there since 2010 to capture a bit of my trajectory or DeTRADversion.
1. Away From Tradism (2010):
https://virtusinmediostat.blogspot.com/2010/11/away-from-tradism.html
The beginnings of this new phase en mi vida began less than a year ago. While maintaining the doctrinal, didactic, aesthetic, artistic, theological, symbological, ceremonial, superiority of the extraordinary form of the Roman Mass, compared to the ordinary form (my studied opinion), I had become increasingly dissatisfied with my place in the community/ies which have come to call themselves "traditionalists". If you are interested in what those concerns are, speak with me; I have shared my concerns with any and all who have asked.
Some, may think I have backtracked, backpedaled, or if you are a convert and still have some vestiges of protestantism in you, "backslid", towards my more liberal days. Not so. I just no longer believe in these cookie cutter groups that we are all supposed to fit ourselves into. Every one of them thinks their way is the best way, and everyone else is, protestantized, liberal, conservative, progressive, unbaptized in the spirit, un-slain, reprobate, etc. You name it. It's always the others, which don't quite have the fullness of the Catholic faith.
I'm tired of it.
A wise man, who I have tangled with on any number of theological, liturgical, and doctrinal issues once emailed me, in the height of my tradism, the phrase "In medio stat virtus". I asked him to translate. He said, "Virtue lies in the middle". I told him that comment smacks of indifferentism, liberalism, and whatever else. I asked him where he got this heresy from. St. Augustine. Oh... Well... One of his victories over me (I let him win sometimes; lol). As of late, the topics and tone of my writing have shifted. I rarely write on apologetics, theology, and the Mass. I write on psychology; something which I actually have formal studies in. This same wise man said that he noticed a change in me. He continues to pray for me, and is excited to see where God is leading me. I told him in response, that I intend to write a piece titled "Virtue Lieth in the Middle: A Radical on Neither Side". It will be a tribute to him and the seed which he planted some years ago.
Thank you, Paul! You might not like the Latin Mass, but I don't like Communion in the hand, so we're even.
God Bless,
Laurence G.
2. Towards tradism, not too much… (2011):
The beginnings of this new phase en mi vida began less than a year ago. While maintaining the doctrinal, didactic, aesthetic, artistic, theological, symbological, ceremonial, superiority of the extraordinary form of the Roman Mass, compared to the ordinary form (my studied opinion), I had become increasingly dissatisfied with my place in the community/ies which have come to call themselves "traditionalists". If you are interested in what those concerns are, speak with me; I have shared my concerns with any and all who have asked.
Some, may think I have backtracked, backpedaled, or if you are a convert and still have some vestiges of protestantism in you, "backslid", towards my more liberal days. Not so. I just no longer believe in these cookie cutter groups that we are all supposed to fit ourselves into. Every one of them thinks their way is the best way, and everyone else is, protestantized, liberal, conservative, progressive, unbaptized in the spirit, un-slain, reprobate, etc. You name it. It's always the others, which don't quite have the fullness of the Catholic faith.
I'm tired of it.
A wise man, who I have tangled with on any number of theological, liturgical, and doctrinal issues once emailed me, in the height of my tradism, the phrase "In medio stat virtus". I asked him to translate. He said, "Virtue lies in the middle". I told him that comment smacks of indifferentism, liberalism, and whatever else. I asked him where he got this heresy from. St. Augustine. Oh... Well... One of his victories over me (I let him win sometimes; lol). As of late, the topics and tone of my writing have shifted. I rarely write on apologetics, theology, and the Mass. I write on psychology; something which I actually have formal studies in. This same wise man said that he noticed a change in me. He continues to pray for me, and is excited to see where God is leading me. I told him in response, that I intend to write a piece titled "Virtue Lieth in the Middle: A Radical on Neither Side". It will be a tribute to him and the seed which he planted some years ago.
Thank you, Paul! You might not like the Latin Mass, but I don't like Communion in the hand, so we're even.
God Bless,
Laurence G.
2. Towards tradism, not too much… (2011):
https://virtusinmediostat.blogspot.com/2011/05/towards-tradism-not-too-much.html
My first post on this blog was titled “Away from tradism”. It was intended to be a mild public statement of where I was at the time when that piece was written. Though even after re-reading it numerous times, I still believe it to be a rather sterile assessment of what I believed was lacking in the community with which I had once thought I felt was my home, theologically, socially, ecclesially, etc. I had numerous private discussions with certain individuals since then, which seemed to paint a picture of me as a churchy social drifter, one who does not take firm stands anymore, prideful, a judger, you name it. Those who have known me the longest since my reversion to the faith in 2002, you know who you are, can give testament to the minor changes I have gone through theologically. However, the social communities with which I attached myself to was a process. I wanted to find where my tendencies fit. In many ways, this is sort of like Protestantism. You have certain affinities, and you go church hopping. Except here, I went group hopping. I had my time with the teen ministries, the young adult ministries, a very brief visit with the charismatic groups, the traditionalists, the extreme traditionalists, and was on the verge of joining the extremely extreme traditionalists, and now where I find myself today; in no group at all. This development of my thought, belief, and practice has always been public. I don’t shun my former associations. They were instrumental in getting me to where I am today.
I recall a conversation with a friend who went down a list of all the former groups he was involved in, some of which I shared. He proceeded to assess all the faults and flaws of these groups and why they aren’t adequate. I asked him, to think about each group and to try to find at least one good thing each one of those groups instilled in his personality that made him a better person. If at least one can be found in each, honestly, then it was not a waste of time.
So, now I write this piece to bring the first piece back in mind. It was not to say I had abandoned tradition. I had abandoned the –ism. Close to a year ago, I was on the verge of giving up on traditionalism. I had become impatient, despairing, cynical, etc. That route changed when one particular individual came barging into my life. She had an idea that she wanted to share with me. So we had a meeting. She shared the idea and I thought it was a wonderful idea. It revolved around the practice of charity. In any case, she had convinced me that the answer was not to abandon the group, but to develop an apostolate therein. So that is where I am at today. My focus now is on the reformation of my own life, and helping others in the reformation of theirs. At first, it was spiritually, but as my interest in psychology resurfaced, now psychologically. In the days and weeks to come I have many ideas for writing projects. God willing, they will be written.
In life, we come across many people. We experience many things. We hear many stories and we make some of our own. We share our lives with others, and they share their lives with us. It is the human experience, and it is heartbreaking to know that most folks are not satisfied with their lives. Not every day is a party, believe me, but we should strive to make each day as pleasant as can be. Let’s not waste our lives away. Be bold. Be useful. Be loving.
May 21, 2011
Laurence G.
3. STICK WITH IT (2020):
My first post on this blog was titled “Away from tradism”. It was intended to be a mild public statement of where I was at the time when that piece was written. Though even after re-reading it numerous times, I still believe it to be a rather sterile assessment of what I believed was lacking in the community with which I had once thought I felt was my home, theologically, socially, ecclesially, etc. I had numerous private discussions with certain individuals since then, which seemed to paint a picture of me as a churchy social drifter, one who does not take firm stands anymore, prideful, a judger, you name it. Those who have known me the longest since my reversion to the faith in 2002, you know who you are, can give testament to the minor changes I have gone through theologically. However, the social communities with which I attached myself to was a process. I wanted to find where my tendencies fit. In many ways, this is sort of like Protestantism. You have certain affinities, and you go church hopping. Except here, I went group hopping. I had my time with the teen ministries, the young adult ministries, a very brief visit with the charismatic groups, the traditionalists, the extreme traditionalists, and was on the verge of joining the extremely extreme traditionalists, and now where I find myself today; in no group at all. This development of my thought, belief, and practice has always been public. I don’t shun my former associations. They were instrumental in getting me to where I am today.
I recall a conversation with a friend who went down a list of all the former groups he was involved in, some of which I shared. He proceeded to assess all the faults and flaws of these groups and why they aren’t adequate. I asked him, to think about each group and to try to find at least one good thing each one of those groups instilled in his personality that made him a better person. If at least one can be found in each, honestly, then it was not a waste of time.
So, now I write this piece to bring the first piece back in mind. It was not to say I had abandoned tradition. I had abandoned the –ism. Close to a year ago, I was on the verge of giving up on traditionalism. I had become impatient, despairing, cynical, etc. That route changed when one particular individual came barging into my life. She had an idea that she wanted to share with me. So we had a meeting. She shared the idea and I thought it was a wonderful idea. It revolved around the practice of charity. In any case, she had convinced me that the answer was not to abandon the group, but to develop an apostolate therein. So that is where I am at today. My focus now is on the reformation of my own life, and helping others in the reformation of theirs. At first, it was spiritually, but as my interest in psychology resurfaced, now psychologically. In the days and weeks to come I have many ideas for writing projects. God willing, they will be written.
In life, we come across many people. We experience many things. We hear many stories and we make some of our own. We share our lives with others, and they share their lives with us. It is the human experience, and it is heartbreaking to know that most folks are not satisfied with their lives. Not every day is a party, believe me, but we should strive to make each day as pleasant as can be. Let’s not waste our lives away. Be bold. Be useful. Be loving.
May 21, 2011
Laurence G.
3. STICK WITH IT (2020):
religion was an emotional experience for me
from the days of Lifeteen even up through the Latin Mass days...
objectively superior form as it was and is, as the traddies would say about the EF, it was still a subjectively emotional experience...
for a while now religion has been a burdensome exercise...
perhaps the meditation today speaks to this kind of experience...
after my literal walk in the park tonight, reading a chapter from We Resist You to the Face, and watching the sun set on the city of Redlands... said the Rosary.
First time, I think, in a few years at least.
Not that I don't pray. Just not the Rosary.
I forgot one of the mysteries even, had to Google it.
The meditation hearkened back to old spiritual reading
I don't remember if it was St Josemaria Escriva or John of the Cross, or Brother Lawrence... or someone else.
Religion is easy when it is sweet, and consoling.
The real test is when religion no longer consoles and no more warm fuzzies... and you still stick with it.
In sum, stick with it...
4. SACRED MUSIC vs PRAISE MUSIC (2023):
https://www.facebook.com/laurencegonzagausa/videos/191804613542972
What's the difference between the emotional experience one prefers from more traditional forms of sacred music versus contemporary forms of music in the liturgy?
I was thinking about this the other day as I was driving 60 mi, 1 and 1/2 hours, for the Mass of the Americas, at St Andrews in Pasadena. While I can appreciate the theologizing and philosophizing artsy smartsy folks do to analyze the difference between classical/traditional sacred music versus contemporary forms, it seems to me when laymen convey their liturgical experiences it has very much to do with emotional experiences as well. So then, is there really a difference?
There's probably a very sophisticated analysis of this out there somewhere.
5. FAITH, AND ITS MOTION (2024):
What's the difference between the emotional experience one prefers from more traditional forms of sacred music versus contemporary forms of music in the liturgy?
I was thinking about this the other day as I was driving 60 mi, 1 and 1/2 hours, for the Mass of the Americas, at St Andrews in Pasadena. While I can appreciate the theologizing and philosophizing artsy smartsy folks do to analyze the difference between classical/traditional sacred music versus contemporary forms, it seems to me when laymen convey their liturgical experiences it has very much to do with emotional experiences as well. So then, is there really a difference?
There's probably a very sophisticated analysis of this out there somewhere.
5. FAITH, AND ITS MOTION (2024):
A few weeks ago I posted about how my observation has been that folks who shift one way or another, conversion in any which direction of faith to non-faith, from Protestantism to Catholicism, from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, etc, it always seems to be driven in some sense mostly by emotion followed later on by some activity of justification to make it appear more rational than it was emotional. I'm not convinced when folks claim it's purely rational. Now if you delve into the Catholic theology pretty deeply, to which I subscribe, then there are mechanisms at play beneath the surface that are imperceptible and we tend to overlook (grace). I'm not denying any of that. Just describing what appears to be the case from external observation.
-Laurence
"In these essays, it's fascinating to learn how the writers beliefs religious or otherwise are shifting as they move through the stages of life. Who has faith now where none existed? Who once believed in some power greater than humanity and felt it slip away? In any case, what did faith mean to them? Was it belief in the goodness of people, in the power of a deity, or perhaps an indefinable sense of something existing at the edges of consciousness? The force of the universe or the belief that the sun will rise and set each day."
- Victoria Zackheim, Ed. , Faith: essays from a believers, agnostics, and atheists
6. THE DEFECTIVE NOVUS ORDO? (2024):
I'm glad this priest, and many others have found they are most at spiritual home in the Novus Ordo, especially after trying and experiencing the other rites of the Church. I can respect that. I mostly find myself at the Novus Ordo as well. It is a home for me for similar reasons. But I also would prefer the TLM if it were more accessible in my area. It's not a bad drive for 30 mins but it's not my local parish. Ideally, both forms would be available at every parish, as it seemed Pope B16 envisioned with Summorum Pontificum, but the reality is, not enough folks want the TLM.
In the same way that many find the NO their home, many also find their home in the TLM. If feelings and experiences and preferences are what wins the day on these issues then what of the sincere legitimate reactions that many have expressed from the damage Traditionis Custodes has inflicted on these TLM faithful? Many of them have been hurt and abused by their shepherds for wanting to worship in their preferred way.
I can appreciate that this priest feels like Traditionalist TLM apologists treat the NO as "second class" or "defective", but that mostly comes from the power of their rhetorical, intellectual, and academic skills to assess the historical issues relating to the controversy since the introduction of the NO in 1970. I would point out that, at the end of the day, the weightier abuse is how the institutional Church, which has actual temporal logistical power in these matters over the parishes, diocesan priests, and other necessary liturgical resources have been the ones who have historically disenfranchised the TLM communities. The TLM communities have been, in fact, the ones that were treated as defective and second class citizens in the supposedly loving and caring post Vatican 2 enlightened Church.
Even while you will find a growing number of disaffected former Traditionalists because someone hurt them in the TLM communities; it's been my observation that there's far more disaffected coming from the NO towards the Eastern Rites, the TLM communities, schismatics TLM groups, and various other groups. That's not to say it's the right or best move, and we can easily judge them as prideful, unfaithful, disobedient, or whatever, but IMO, they are less running towards something better, and more so running away from somewhere they perceive as worse off for them and their families. These are the issues, in my view, that are the root cause of all of these liturgical wars.
The academics can write books to justify their current or end game views, but in my opinion, the underlying issues are really cultural, psychological, sociological, emotional, just like any other movement of conversion, at least, from external observation. There's no external way of validating how grace is actually operating in these matters, one way or another.
So, whatever side you find yourself, just remember when you are engaging with folks on these controversial issues, you aren't arguing with souless and emotionaless AI. You are engaging with complex human beings and you can't fully understand where they've come from, what they are going through, or where they may be going, just because you've read 17 liturgical theology and history books.
7. PROPOSING THE TLM
YOUNG PEOPLE GOING TO THE TLM (2023):
While I suspect that anyone that is brought to the TLM and is generally open will say that it was a beautiful experience, to be fair, I think many of those folks would still say it's not something they would want to go to regularly in spite of the fact they can admit it's more beautiful than their local standard NO. I know this from experience from years of bringing dozens of young people to experience the TLM. They might go for a while but for many of them it's just not worth the travel or the mental effort to reorient to the form.
TLM lovers can intellectualize and analyze the reasons they think that is, but I don't think there's any need for all of that. It's just what happens.
The serious critics of the TLM have cognitive biases that even if they did give the TLM a fair shake, they would probably form many mental blocks that would get them to still find problems with it.
Much like evangelization to Protestants, I see it the same way about the TLM. You propose, not impose. Bring them, show them, and be available if they have questions. But for whatever their reasons, they are free to say thanks but no thanks, if they still prefer the Novus Ordo.
What good does it do to analyze the possible reasons why they didn't fall off their Damascus road horse and scales falling from their NO eyes to see the "gospel truth" of the TLM? I don't know who the young Trad author is, but give it 15 years... Maybe your opinions will soften with more life experience.
8. RECONVERTING THE DECONVERTED (2021):
https://www.facebook.com/laurencegonzagausa/posts/pfbid0bp98h8SLQe8FnLUKEdUNRUZGBe3sDKzr6BbKsQX4YY7UJYp7YUgivouTU3hZ312al
I'll bookmark my commentary here later.
Basically my view here is I don't lose sleep over those who deconvert and become atheists or agnostics.
Why?
Well, it's just part of their story.
The story which is already written.
They may come back later down the line.
I may be the one who ultimately rejects the faith.
If I do, it's part of my story too.
So don't sweat it.
If God puts certain people in your sphere of influence then talk to them and try to understand their story, reasons why they left or what's keeping them from coming back.
Conversion, and reversion is the work of grace, after all, not my logical argumentation.
Offline, I shared with Dr. Arnecillo why I think Protestants are attracted to and converting to liturgical Communions like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism.
However, likewise, folks are also leaving those Churches too. Point is not to focus on the numbers. Numbers don't prove the truth.
9. ON THE SSPX (2023):
I'll bookmark my commentary here later.
Basically my view here is I don't lose sleep over those who deconvert and become atheists or agnostics.
Why?
Well, it's just part of their story.
The story which is already written.
They may come back later down the line.
I may be the one who ultimately rejects the faith.
If I do, it's part of my story too.
So don't sweat it.
If God puts certain people in your sphere of influence then talk to them and try to understand their story, reasons why they left or what's keeping them from coming back.
Conversion, and reversion is the work of grace, after all, not my logical argumentation.
Offline, I shared with Dr. Arnecillo why I think Protestants are attracted to and converting to liturgical Communions like Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism.
However, likewise, folks are also leaving those Churches too. Point is not to focus on the numbers. Numbers don't prove the truth.
9. ON THE SSPX (2023):
The SSPX didn't reconcile during B16's time, they will never reconcile; so, the SSPX are a false solution to a real problem.
I just read the recent article by Charles Coulombe.
Recommended by Dr. P. K.
https://crisismagazine.com/.../the-good-the-bad-and-the...
Charles is a good man. I had the pleasure of meeting him several times during my una voce days. Right after TC came out, where Francis basically maps out his plan to eventually exterminate the TLM, I had a few brief exchanges with Charles relating to my shift in view of the SSPX.
I changed my mind about them, where I was just starting to attend their chapel in Colton more frequently after TC. But after digesting the arguments from John Salza, I accepted the view that the SSPX are in schism.
In this 13 minute video I give my main reason why the SSPX is a false solution to a real problem. Even if they are not in schism, I don't see them reconciling in full with Rome anytime soon, or ever. And that's not a good place to be either way.
10. THE CONTRADICTION OF INDEPENDENT CATHOLICISM (2023):
I remember right after Traditionis was dropped, a local Catholic sent me a private message asking me my opinion about whether it's a good idea if a priest in otherwise good standing with the diocese offered TLM in secret in a home or some other venue.
My concern is basically the same as what the author says here. The problem is when things are done in secret then it opens it up to potential for crossing boundaries, and in some cases, abuse. The important thing is that there needs to be oversight and transparency to some degree. The biggest danger in my opinion would be some kind of cult of personality that develops around hero priests perceived as persecuted by an "evil hierarchy". All of a sudden almost everything that the priest teaches is gospel truth.
Luckily in Southern California there isn't a shortage of TLMs available legitimately. I see no reason for anyone to really consider going to SSPX, or independent chapels for their Sunday obligation or receiving communion in my region.
I have visited the SSPX a couple of times lately. Not for Sunday obligation, and I don't receive communion.
For the same reason I don't receive communion at the Orthodox.
11. NO CELEBRITY SAINT PRIESTS IN THIS LIFE (2023):
I've said time and again.
No one in this life is a verified "saint" in my book.
No one should ever be put on a pedestal of "holiness".
I have a lot of priest friends, and I pray they keep the faith and the praxis just like the rest of us lay people. And God knows, even the "righteous man falls seven times"...
For Father Jackson, I pray for justice in this life, I pray for God's mercy in the next.
Update: Let me also add this addendum. Apart from other sexual related sins, pedophilia is an interesting phenomenon where some research has suggested that this could be an acquired paraphilia due to abnormal brain functions such as lesions. Once removed, impulses for paraphilia decline. https://jamanetwork.com/.../jamaneurology/fullarticle/783830
12. WILL THE GATES OF HELL PREVAIL? (2023):
You know, one thing that a lot of commentators don't consider as an alternative.
Maybe, all of this doesn't make sense at all because it's not true.
Catholicism being the only reasonable religious system out there, at least for me, the only other alternative is going back to atheism.
The whole draw of Catholicism among the various flavors out there is that there is a principle of unity and in certain circumstances certainty, obviously I'm talking about the papacy. I wouldn't put myself in the category of hyperpapalist, but the papacy has to mean something not just symbolically, but of course, theologically, and practically for everyday Catholics like me.
I can appreciate why some people just decide to check out all together like the first Peter 5 guy. I forget his name again.
If the spectrum of professional Catholics loosely associated among a spectrum of sources that I would trust from Catholic Answers, Ignatius Press, The Wanderer, National Catholic Register, Ascension, Steubenville, etc on one end of the orthodox spectrum, up through the EWTN, Catholic Culture, Crisis, TAN, Sophia, St Paul Biblical, etc around the moderate to traditional, and up through the more resistance groups like Fatima Center, Latin Mass Magazine, Traditionalist magazine, Catholic Family News, The Remnant and all those folks... If they can't figure it out with their intramural debates among each other, there's no way I'm going to figure it out.
Keep it simple, stupid.
I might have to subscribe to the simulation theory as a backup, only because the atheist thesis doesn't seem to be satisfying enough to explain what I want it to explain.
Not really looking for a debate among the reps from each camp. I've been in all of those camps, and all of you have funky cheese sitting somewhere in your cupboards. I'm looking for the camp that has all their ducks in a row, and it's not looking good.
If the Catholic Church ends up imploding finally after 2000 years, then the gates of hell have prevailed, and the prophecy is not fulfilled. I have no interest really in looking for some hidden remnant underground church in some random basement of society somewhere, like Pope Michael pontificating from his mom's kitchen or the silly and ridiculous theatrics of the Palmarian weirdos in Spain. That's not the Catholic Church as it was designed, allegedly. It's supposed to be a light on a lampstand, not hidden. It's supposed to be a light to the nations not a cavernous darkness or pit. If the church is now meant to reflect all of the principles and values of the world there's no need to join the church, the world is so much more fun and interesting than the churchified secular world. So if that's the future of the Catholic Church, you can keep it. It won't take much to pack my things.
I'll just need to figure out how to sell off 3,000 Catholic theology books.13. REBRANDING THE RESISTANCE (2023):
I lean towards the resistance camp but I don't tend to go along with most of their views. Maybe I should rebrand myself.
Maybe resistance is too strong of a word.
Ok, I'll go with "recognize and submit cautiously, within reason".
The reality of it is, there's a long spectrum here, which I used to characterize by the types of publications you read. I shared this with 2 tradish priests and they got a kick out of it.
1. National Catholic Register/Crisis/Catholic World Report/Catholic Answers/Envoy Catholics
2. Wanderer/New Oxford Review Catholics
3. Remnant/Catholic Family News/Latin Mass Magazine Catholic
4. Angelus Magazine (SSPX) Catholics
*Notice I didn't include National Catholic Reporter, America, or Commonweal publications, and others like them, as I wouldn't consider those mags Catholic.*
Maybe resistance is too strong of a word.
Ok, I'll go with "recognize and submit cautiously, within reason".
The reality of it is, there's a long spectrum here, which I used to characterize by the types of publications you read. I shared this with 2 tradish priests and they got a kick out of it.
1. National Catholic Register/Crisis/Catholic World Report/Catholic Answers/Envoy Catholics
2. Wanderer/New Oxford Review Catholics
3. Remnant/Catholic Family News/Latin Mass Magazine Catholic
4. Angelus Magazine (SSPX) Catholics
*Notice I didn't include National Catholic Reporter, America, or Commonweal publications, and others like them, as I wouldn't consider those mags Catholic.*
"Hey Laurence how would you define rad trad? This terminology is used everywhere and I think people use it differently. What are the distinguishing factors of a radical traditionalist?"
Andrew Ewell I try to avoid using the qualifier "rad" or "radical" because to some commentators all types of "traditionalists" are "radical". But if I were to categorize some general types:
1) those who appreciate the TLM but don't go regularly, mostly go to NO or Ordinariate.
2) those who mostly go to TLM, prefer it, but don't exclude the occasional NO when necessary or convenient.
3) those who prefer the TLM and exclusively go there, and have serious reservations about the NO and would almost never go to the NO for moral reasons or avoiding exposure for their kiddos, but do not in principle reject the validity of the NO. They may also reject the SSPX as schismatics.
4) those who doubt the validity of the NO but go to diocesan approved TLMs, and sympathetic to the SSPX and the like, but don't really go there.
5) those who go to diocesan, SSPX, independents whenever convenient, they think all are equally good, and never the NO.
6) those who only go to SSPX and Independents.
7) Sedevacantists who may go to SSPX, and CMRI and the like.
8 ) Sedevacantists who reject the SSPX and only go to Sede clergy.
9) Sedevacantists who practically reject all public Masses offered anywhere, Sede or otherwise.
For me, I think anything to do with the SSPX is too far. I believe they are in schism so I don't know if that is "radical". It's just not an option. But let me clarify, I might go to SSPX personally, on occasion, but I don't go for Sunday obligation, nor do I receive communion there. They are not priests of the Catholic Church. I would go to the SSPX in the same way I visit various Orthodox communions.
"Laurence Gonzaga wow this is very detailed let me read this with greater focus. Thanks Laurence"
Andrew Ewell I remember chatting with an "Independent" priest, Father Stretenovic who was associated with "Msgr." Patrick Perez, former ICK seminary rector and "pastor" of OL Help of Christians in Garden Grove CA... I told Father S that the "extreme trads" are always the ones to your right... he laughed. He knew what I meant. Everyone always thinks they are in the best spot, of course, and the extremes are always the too far ones. But you notice, folks tend to move to the right as they go along the Trad path, not all, but many do. Luckily I caught myself before I went further down that path and actually found my way back to my local NO parish. I'm probably at 1 in my list above. Until Francis says or does something funky to upset me and then I escalate to 3 for a few days...
Andrew Ewell I try to avoid using the qualifier "rad" or "radical" because to some commentators all types of "traditionalists" are "radical". But if I were to categorize some general types:
1) those who appreciate the TLM but don't go regularly, mostly go to NO or Ordinariate.
2) those who mostly go to TLM, prefer it, but don't exclude the occasional NO when necessary or convenient.
3) those who prefer the TLM and exclusively go there, and have serious reservations about the NO and would almost never go to the NO for moral reasons or avoiding exposure for their kiddos, but do not in principle reject the validity of the NO. They may also reject the SSPX as schismatics.
4) those who doubt the validity of the NO but go to diocesan approved TLMs, and sympathetic to the SSPX and the like, but don't really go there.
5) those who go to diocesan, SSPX, independents whenever convenient, they think all are equally good, and never the NO.
6) those who only go to SSPX and Independents.
7) Sedevacantists who may go to SSPX, and CMRI and the like.
8 ) Sedevacantists who reject the SSPX and only go to Sede clergy.
9) Sedevacantists who practically reject all public Masses offered anywhere, Sede or otherwise.
For me, I think anything to do with the SSPX is too far. I believe they are in schism so I don't know if that is "radical". It's just not an option. But let me clarify, I might go to SSPX personally, on occasion, but I don't go for Sunday obligation, nor do I receive communion there. They are not priests of the Catholic Church. I would go to the SSPX in the same way I visit various Orthodox communions.
"Laurence Gonzaga wow this is very detailed let me read this with greater focus. Thanks Laurence"
Andrew Ewell I remember chatting with an "Independent" priest, Father Stretenovic who was associated with "Msgr." Patrick Perez, former ICK seminary rector and "pastor" of OL Help of Christians in Garden Grove CA... I told Father S that the "extreme trads" are always the ones to your right... he laughed. He knew what I meant. Everyone always thinks they are in the best spot, of course, and the extremes are always the too far ones. But you notice, folks tend to move to the right as they go along the Trad path, not all, but many do. Luckily I caught myself before I went further down that path and actually found my way back to my local NO parish. I'm probably at 1 in my list above. Until Francis says or does something funky to upset me and then I escalate to 3 for a few days...
15. UNPLUG FROM THE CRISIS CATHOLIC MEDIA:
Last night I was at a get together with friends, one of them a new baby priest. He has a bit more authority these days, but since I had a small hand in teaching him the real Catholic faith when he was in high school I'll still vehemently argue with him if I disagree. More respectfully perhaps, sigh. I'm sure there's a canon law involved here.
Besides the secular chatter we ventured into the "crisis". Depending on how far "right" you find yourself in the spectrum, the more things fall into the "crisis" bucket. I've found myself in many idealogical camps over the years, from tolerating the happy clappy teen ministry fluff in my early days, to the doorway of sedevacantism only a few years after. Then for a period of time I stopped going to Mass altogether around 7-8 years ago. It was a brief period, but even moments out of the faith could have eternal consequences so I don't recommend it to anyone.
In my opinion, no matter how objective you think you are, or claim to be, your perception of "the facts" and "reality" and "truth" are conditioned by your subjective experience. Yes, of course I agree that the truth is objective, but how you apprehend, acknowledge, and then integrate that truth is the subjective piece and that's when it can be warped into "truth" masquerading as truth.
This world is messy. The Church can also be messy. When we have a picture of the Church that is "spotless" in a way that far extends the boundaries of what areas we should expect it to be spotless, then we will most certainly find it wanting.
Some will perhaps just shrug their shoulders and keep on keeping on because they are exhausted defending this caricature, like I do at times.
They could flee to other ancient churches, like the Orthodox, like I've flirted with at times, and many other Catholics as well. I made a video reflecting on what I think it is about Orthodoxy after going to my first Pascha this past year at St Andrews in Riverside. What a beautiful experience that was liturgically and communally. There really is something of a sense of early Christian Community it seems to me at that church. I wonder if it's something particular to that church or if it is representative of the Orthodox whole. And yet still there's something missing about their setup. Really obvious thing from a Catholic perspective is papal primacy, whatever that actually entails.
Others give in to the temptation to chuck it all out the door, like Steve Scojek has recently, apparently. Honestly I really never knew who this guy was and that he founded such a huge deal in the Catholic journalistic world if you can call it that. So I can't say I was ever a fan or was ever interested in the material that website put out.
I get the last one. I've said it publicly on several occasions on my weekly show with my Protestant pastor friend. For me, the only camp that makes the most sense is the Catholic flavor of Christianity. There's maybe a slim possibility that Eastern Orthodoxy might be an alternative, having only read or studied some of their material. Never Protestantism. No way any of those folks have it for me. Sorry, nothing personal. But Protestantism's whole existence is founded upon its antithesis to Catholicism. That's enough for me to know that they definitely don't got it. By it I mean the whole of it. They have some of it they just don't have all of it. Whatever "it" is.
My suggestion is to just unplug from the "crisis" every once in a while. If the "crisis" is destroying the faith of many because they bought into it and accept its false doctrines, then the other way the "crisis" works is to destroy the faith of those who can't reconcile the "crisis" with their own emotionally based expectations. Yup, no judgement, I'm talking about me too.
Whatever it is you do for "the faith" just keep on keeping on. Check in with others often with fingers to the pulse to check if there's signs of veering off course, and then back into it.
My theology helps me cope with all the above by accepting the idea that all of it has been written, free will and all, before all time. So, just stick to the script.
*I know some of you might disagree. Fine. This is not an invitation for debate. If you treat it as such, don't be surprised if I ignore you. :-)*
From the article linked below:
"I fear the ongoing strike by the Vatican against the Traditional Latin Mass may lead many into this kind of anger. Thirty years ago, I watched similar fights and similar anger lead men out of the Church. I knew Gerry Matatics and Tom Droleskey when they were still Catholic. There is a good chance most of you will not know their names, but both were deeply involved in traditional Catholic issues back in those indult days."
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